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Make a liar tell the truuuuuth!

^Continuing today's theme of using hokey old superhero theme songs as post titles.

Well, I did it. I did what I said I would I refuted an argument that came up months ago. I refuted anon, a mouse's argument about the lasso of truth.

On SCANS _DAILY!

asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/409659.html#cutid1

That is my argument. Anon is welcome to refute it in his own blog, we'll link it on WFA. I will not refute his refuting, because I've said my piece, I've represented another side to the argument, and I'm content with that, and I have too much experience with internet arguments to be caught in a circlejerk. I just wanted the good readers of WFA to know there's another side. I would appreciate it if Anon did NOT come over to my blog to argue with me, when and if he sees this.  I did not do the same for him, when he first posted it, I posted a kneejerk reaction, but I hope he'll forgive that.

I also said I was going to refute Noah's argument that WW is a Mary Sue later, but I've decided not to. I think Noah pretty much dismissed any veiws opposite to his own by dismissing Wonder Woman as a Mary Sue and saying that's what fans like bluefall (and I assume myself) want her to be a Super Sue, therefore making our opinions, I suppose, irrelevant compared to his. And then he said Gail SIMONE wrote Wonder Woman as a Mary Sue, and I laughed. I'm not sure Gail's actually capable of writing Mary Sues. Not to mention the current Wonder Woman arc is dealing with Wonder Woman getting carried away with anger and making what even she admits are dubious moral choices.

You could make an argument every single superhero is a Mary Sue. It's a trapping of the genre that superheroes are omnipowerful and ultra competent and iconic. If you don't like it, fine. But don't dismiss the character and their fans because of it.

Mary Sue is a very weighted word to throw around. It's not a card you pull if you want to have a long and reasoned argument about the character, I would think. It's a card you pull if you want to dismiss somebody. By saying Wonder Woman is an author insert, or a fan insert, you're effectively dismissing that author and fan and saying the character is worthless, as they are hollow and are just an insert. Noah's done a hundred posts explicating why Wonder Woman's a Mary Sue, and if I don't feel like arguing them because I've been effectively dismissed. I am, after all, a Mary Sue lover, since I love a worthless character like Wonder Woman who is absolutely a Mary Sue.

Mary Sue is fine for fanfic. There are tons of them out there. For instance, Rose Potter is definitely a Mary Sue. Wonder Woman doesn't even come close to that. She, for example, loses on occasion. Once you start arguing actual published characters are Mary Sues, it gets, well, trickier.

Once again, I'm not trying to start an argument. I've said my piece, Noah is welcome to refute, I'll post it on WFA, but that's all I'm saying on the matter (unless Noah proves me amazingly wrong somehow, in which case, I will acknowledge this). I just wanted my two cents out there.

Comments

( 13 comments — Leave a comment )
scottyquick
May. 31st, 2009 01:30 am (UTC)
also, the script format thing you did for your last post was hilarious.
Woo-hoo! You make me happy, Nev.

I disagree with him too, but I just don't care. If he wants to say Di's a Sue, go ahead! It's silly, but it's no skin off my back.
nevermore999
May. 31st, 2009 01:55 am (UTC)
Re: also, the script format thing you did for your last post was hilarious.
Thanks!

I agree, I'm not that fussed, but I felt people might read certain posts and believe them simply because there was no counterpoint, and I feel it my duty to provide one so they can make up their own minds.
(Deleted comment)
nevermore999
May. 31st, 2009 03:20 am (UTC)
Heh, thanks.

Funny how those flouncers tend to return.
(Deleted comment)
nevermore999
May. 31st, 2009 03:20 am (UTC)
Well, Noah says he thinks Superman is one too, so at least he's fair. And thanks! Yay fanfiction!
the_narration
May. 31st, 2009 04:04 am (UTC)
Hmm.... so what about that one JLA arc where this child prince's dad said one thing and his mom said another and the lasso said they were both telling the truth? The lasso got broken from Wondy's sheer disbelief and she had to get it remade.
(Deleted comment)
(Deleted comment)
nevermore999
May. 31st, 2009 05:45 pm (UTC)
No problem! You explained it properly where I probably wouldn't have been able!
the_narration
May. 31st, 2009 02:59 pm (UTC)
Thanks for clearing that up. It has been a long while since I read that story and a lot of the details had gotten a bit fuzzy.

Still, even if the lasso looks into the depths of their soul, can it expose misinformation that they genuinely believe? Not self-delusion, but actual misunderstanding? If Batman tells Superman that he's going to Gotham when he's really planning to go to New York, and then Wonder Woman puts the lasso on Supes and asks him where Bats is going, does the lasso pull what Supes knows out of him or does it pull information about Bats' actual destination out of the cosmos? I guess what I'm asking is, can the lasso make somebody give information they don't actually know? Not having read much Wonder Woman, I'm not actually sure what the answer is.
nevermore999
May. 31st, 2009 05:43 pm (UTC)
I don't think the lasso can expose truth the the...bondage victim...is not aware of at all. It can expose truth the bondage victim is aware of but THINKS they aren't aware of. Such as, if Superman doesn't think Bat would ever abandon him at the Gotham make out post for his meeting in New York, but knows in his heart, yes, he would, Bats is just that cold and heartless...he'd be forced to say "Bats is probably going to NY". But if he was genuinely not aware Bats is in NY, he'd say "I think he's in Gotham."

At least, I think that's how it works. I've never seen if used on someone who is misinformed.
the_narration
Jun. 1st, 2009 12:58 am (UTC)
That's what I figured. Thanks, Nev.
( 13 comments — Leave a comment )

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