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Thinky thoughts: Fans and Criticism

  • Nov. 9th, 2008 at 2:31 PM
dark steph
I've been thinking. I've been thinking many thoughts. And one of these thoughts is that I admire Gail Simone. Not for the usual reason that I love her writing and she's as cool as hell (now there's an oxymoron if ever I saw one) but because she actually goes on the Internet, finds the fans, and listens to their criticism.

Criticism, to me, is about opening doors. You get douchebags that obviously know nothing about good writing and just live to flame, especially on the internet, but there's also the kind of criticism that makes you think. It makes you realize things you're not previously aware of. I think what happens in comics a lot is certain writers are just not aware of the implications of the things they're writing, and maybe they just need to sit down with someone who really loves a certain character and get that point of view.

These people are not saying they are better than you. That they know how to write better than you. They are contributing a certain point of view as someone who is devoted to this character, or this story, and telling you WHY. Telling you how they see the character right now, and what they would love to happen with this character, the directions they think it should go.

I was just thinking. I'd love it if I could, f'rinstance, sit down with Fabian Nicieza and tell him the fears, I have, as a fan, about Steph. If I could explain to him exactly WHY I care about her and where I think she is, where I think she should go. And this is not because I think I'm a better writer than Fabian, or I think he would listen to me. I think it's because every writer can benefit from hearing a fan who's got their head on straight (I like to think I do) who really cares about the character they're writing. I think maybe, a writer talking to a fan, a fan can bring up certain things the writer was not aware of.

Also, I would love to try to drill my thoughts about Batgirl into Beechen's head. Not sure if it would work, but it's worth a try.

Where I'm going with this, is, listen to fans. They have legitimate points of view. But you need to be able to sort out the crap from the truth, find intelligent fans who actually think hard about your work instead of just randomly forming opinions. If I was a writer for comics? I would trawl the Internet. I'd find some intelligent, true fans on the blogosphere and take into account the different points of view. I'd look 'em up, ask them what they'd like to see. Because to sell to your customer, you need to know your customer.

Just sort the crap from the legitimate criticism. It's not selling out creatively, in the end the decision of what to do is yours. You can't let the fans control what you like, but you can't ignore them either. You need to find a balance.

My random thoughts for the day.


Comments

[info]darth_swank wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 09:54 pm (UTC)
I know I'm a better writer than Fabian.
[info]nevermore999 wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 10:19 pm (UTC)
I actually really adored the Batman Confidential arc he did. And there was this one backup story in Trinity about Wonder Woman...it made me happy.

Jury's still out on Robin. I don't judge a arc until it's finished.
[info]darth_swank wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 10:30 pm (UTC)
Whether the arc ends well or not, he writes this book as though he's never read it before... It was the same with Adam Beechen. Chuck Dixon and Bill Willingham spent a lot of time developing the tone of the book and the inter-relationships between the characters in meaningful ways and guys like Beechen and Fabian have no qualms with wiping their asses with all of that hard work.

[info]nevermore999 wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 11:11 pm (UTC)
I thought Willingham's Robin SUCKED. I mean, the Girl Wonder stuff was okay, but after that it all went to hell. He did not seem to get Tim at all, with the pretentiousness and rambling inner monologues and I was like "ARGH TIM ARGH SHUT UP" and that why I dropped the book until Dixon came on.

Jon Lewis, on the other hand, rocked. His plots were a little out there, but he got the characters spot on. Especially his Tim and Steph. I wanted to cuddle both of them forever. Especially Tim since Peter Woods was drawing him and made Tim extra cute (I'll admit to a raging crush on Pete Woods Tim. I want him back on Robin.)

Fabian>Beechen and Willingham. I really don't like some elements of the work like Tim's whole "MY CAPE WILL GO OVER TEH CITY!" but last issue was an improvement. Stuff happened and Steph got to be badass for a few pages. My interest was caught.
[info]darth_swank wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 11:12 pm (UTC)
You didn't like Willingham?

[info]nevermore999 wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 11:15 pm (UTC)
I think I made that pretty clear.

I like Fables though.
[info]darth_swank wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 11:16 pm (UTC)
I know you made it clear, but it just surprised me... I really dug all the Johnny Warlock stuff...

Also, Fables is one of my favoritest books ever....
[info]nevermore999 wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 11:27 pm (UTC)
That was okay. I really liked it when I first read it, but I found it mediocre on rereading. But post Girl-Wonder? Tim's rambly inner monologues not only bugged the hell out of me, but we had all that soldier shit which made NO sense (I can't even go into how much it baffled me) especially Tim being okay with all the random shooting of villians around him. And Darla, I despised how every girl Tim meets seems to fall in love with him (when it was just Ariana and Steph, fine, but then it got ridiculous), and Darla's blithering about how Tim was the best person ever made him seem like SUCH a Mary Sue.

And don't even get me started on what he did to Dana. Her husband dies and she can't handle it and goes crazy? WHAT? Dixon always potrayed Dana as a strong female presence in Tim's life with her head on straight, a foil to Jack's more dickish tendencies. Grief is one thing, but she would NOT completely fall apart because Jack died. But here she is, a pathetic blithering heap in a mental hospital.

Also, Alfred's crush on her was wrong on multiple levels. Not just the age gap, but the fact her husband had just died, she was in horrible mental distress AND Tim's stepmother.

I want a return of Dana, BTW. Fabian says she's alive. And poor girl deserves it.
[info]darth_swank wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 11:30 pm (UTC)
Your arguments make sense, and I agree with you about the Soldier stuff, though I still sort of liked it..... I did like Darla Alquista, though... She worked for me... I think Tim needed some crazy females in his life...

But I still liked Willingham's arc better than what Beechen and Fabian have done, by far.
[info]nevermore999 wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 11:43 pm (UTC)
That doesn't even begin to brush on my full problems with the run. I genuinely think Willingham does not get the Bat Family. He's good with his original characters, but I've never liked his work with the DCU.

I even have problems with the Girl Wonder arc, as Stephtastic as it was. I rant about it here in my three part overview of the run:

http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/6099784.html#cutid1

(Actually, this one is all complimentary, but here it is for the sake of completeness)

http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/6101743.html#cutid1

Aaaand about half the complaining of the first post:

http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/6104934.html#cutid1
[info]nevermore999 wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 11:29 pm (UTC)
What the fuck that's not any of my icons what.
[info]scottyquick wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 11:02 pm (UTC)
Why don't you judge an arc before it's finished?
[info]nevermore999 wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 11:15 pm (UTC)
Because, some elements that don't make sense could make sense later in the arc. If I'd judged, frex, Fabian's Batman Confidential arc afore it was finished, I would have been like "meh." But in the last couple issues everything really came together and I loved it.

Right now, I'd say about SFAH "meh." But last issue I actually deeply enjoyed reading, so I can see it really might come together soon.
[info]darth_swank wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 10:35 pm (UTC)
Also, I think if you'd read any of the comics I've worked on, you'd agree....
[info]nevermore999 wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 11:16 pm (UTC)
I'm sure you're fab.
[info]darth_swank wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 11:17 pm (UTC)
Don't patronize me....

;)
[info]nevermore999 wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 11:27 pm (UTC)
I was in earnest. I swear by my kittycats head.
[info]parsimonia wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2008 10:57 pm (UTC)
Word. Comics is a very strange medium in this regard, because there are, have been, and will continue to have many storytellers dealing with the same characters.So you legitimately have different but valid interpretations of characters and what makes them special or interesting.

At best it probably is a balancing act between a writer's personal take on a character or book and how readers view things, and what they want to see, read and buy.

And because there have been so many people involved with comic book characters over the years, it almost spreads out the sense of ownership over the characters, which makes listening to readers and fans more important. (Heh, not that there isn't already an abundance of fans in any fandom that have entitlement issues, but to some extent perhaps comic fans are a bit justified in that sense.)
[info]bluefall wrote:
Nov. 11th, 2008 02:42 am (UTC)
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? The difference between "different but legit takes" and "totally wtf."

Like, Gail's said she believes Diana absolutely would not take a life to save her own. To save other people, obviously yes; she's not going to apologize for a Max Lord or a Doomsday thing, but supposing you've got someone like Wacky Alkyone who genuinely doesn't seem to pose a threat to anyone other than Diana herself, and it comes down to kill or be killed, Diana won't kill.

Now, I think that's silly and Diana would value her own life and all the good she knows she can do for the world over some idiot who actually thought killing her was a good thing. But even though that's not how I see her, I still think that's a totally valid interpretation of the character, and if I read a story that hangs on that concept, it's not going to seem off to me.

On the other hand, something like the relaunch, that just screams NO NO NO BAD WRONG NOT DIANA. And it's not even a difference in degree, really. It's just a total difference in kind. And I think part of the problem is that writers are used to defending the first kind of difference and don't realize that the second really isn't the same thing.
[info]parsimonia wrote:
Nov. 11th, 2008 03:07 am (UTC)
Yeah, although in some ways I can appreciate the huge deviating interpretations for the sake of contrast, as long as it doesn't become actual *canon*. For example, as much as ASBAR makes me want to laugh, cry and pull my hair out all at the same time, I kinda like being able to hold it up and say "See this? See this? This is BAD writing, this is BAD Batman! Do not do things like this!"

Diana would value her own life and all the good she knows she can do for the world over some idiot who actually thought killing her was a good thing

To go off on a tangent about the nature of superheroes...it's interesting that what is probably the most understandable or instinctual reason for killing (self-defense) is one that a superhero may not see as justified.

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